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Post by SmokedPears on Mar 23, 2017 6:52:31 GMT -6
I think it is pretty obvious they just want TB to focus on rehab and not football.
The major difference is arm talent. The playbook is 5 times bigger with Bradford's arm and experience than with TB. Bradford has better poise and can read defenses and get the ball out to avoid the sack. TB looks paralyzed in the pocket and took 44 sacks with a significantly better Oline and the NFL rushing leader taking the pressure off.
Honestly you seem to be a TB fan. I'm not a Bradford fan, I'm a Vikings fan and Bradford is the better QB, and it isn't even close IMO.
Lots of big statements that don't jive with reality. I can understand how some feel Sam is a better QB but I don't think it is nearly as clear as you do. AP has been a hindrance to his QB's since he got here other than Favre. It's entirely possible, if not likely, that AP's negative runs on first and second down would have negatively affected Sam, and his pass pro likely would have shortened Sam's season.
Sam played an offense that was much different in the 2nd half of the season than what they ran with AP and Norv. The OL was bad but let's not forget Kalil was one of the worst LT in the league and Clemmings wasn't much better at RT, in fact I'd say Sirles is a better RT than Clemmings was his first year.
www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb
www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2015
ftw.usatoday.com/2016/08/nfl-quarterback-rankings-2016
not to prove Teddy is better but to bring the debate back to reality-it is close, and worthy of debate and competition if both are healthy.
I'm mostly with you but I don't think Clemmings was better at all. As bad as Kalil has been, things were worse when he was out. |
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WisconsinVike
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Post by WisconsinVike on Mar 23, 2017 7:16:37 GMT -6
I'm with P1 on this one. Bradford is a far superior quarterback than Teddy.
Yea, Teddy has a great smile, is a super nice guy, but I'd rather have Bradford in the game than Teddy.
I think Bradford is the Viking's quarterback for the foreseeable future.
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Post by nodakviking on Mar 23, 2017 7:34:40 GMT -6
Lots of big statements that don't jive with reality. I can understand how some feel Sam is a better QB but I don't think it is nearly as clear as you do. AP has been a hindrance to his QB's since he got here other than Favre. It's entirely possible, if not likely, that AP's negative runs on first and second down would have negatively affected Sam, and his pass pro likely would have shortened Sam's season.
Sam played an offense that was much different in the 2nd half of the season than what they ran with AP and Norv. The OL was bad but let's not forget Kalil was one of the worst LT in the league and Clemmings wasn't much better at RT, in fact I'd say Sirles is a better RT than Clemmings was his first year.
www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb
www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2015
ftw.usatoday.com/2016/08/nfl-quarterback-rankings-2016
not to prove Teddy is better but to bring the debate back to reality-it is close, and worthy of debate and competition if both are healthy.
I'm mostly with you but I don't think Clemmings was better at all. As bad as Kalil has been, things were worse when he was out. I meant the LT may have been slightly better with Kalil but he was still one of the worst in the NFL in 2015 while RT Sirles in 2016 was probably better than Clemmings in 2015. Boone was better at LG Fusco was equall inept. IMO the OL was bad both years but slightly worse in 2016.
Also 2015 we still tried to run 7 step drops with a RB that was a liability for the pas game.
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Odin
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Post by Purp1eOne on Mar 23, 2017 7:52:54 GMT -6
Also 2015 we still tried to run 7 step drops with a RB that was a liability for the pas game. So even when he is not on the field he gets blamed. So follow along..... We ran the ball all the time..... so first and second down had to be runs right? Thats all I have heard..... And then he is not a 3 down back so he must have been off the field on that 3rd down right?...... So how many blocks do you think he missed in pass protection? And then do you really think that insignificant amount had anything to do with Teddy? Get real...... |
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Post by nodakviking on Mar 23, 2017 8:07:17 GMT -6
Also 2015 we still tried to run 7 step drops with a RB that was a liability for the pas game. So even when he is not on the field he gets blamed. So follow along..... We ran the ball all the time..... so first and second down had to be runs right? Thats all I have heard..... And then he is not a 3 down back so he must have been off the field on that 3rd down right?...... So how many blocks do you think he missed in pass protection? And then do you really think that insignificant amount had anything to do with Teddy? Get real...... Do you think we ran exclusively on first and 2nd down a passed exclusively on 3rd? AP was a liability for the pass game, he was a poor pass blocker who was ineffective running out of the shotgun with limited receiving skills. How can that be a benefit to the pass game or QB? |
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Post by Purp1eOne on Mar 23, 2017 8:25:14 GMT -6
So even when he is not on the field he gets blamed. So follow along..... We ran the ball all the time..... so first and second down had to be runs right? Thats all I have heard..... And then he is not a 3 down back so he must have been off the field on that 3rd down right?...... So how many blocks do you think he missed in pass protection? And then do you really think that insignificant amount had anything to do with Teddy? Get real...... Do you think we ran exclusively on first and 2nd down a passed exclusively on 3rd? AP was a liability for the pass game, he was a poor pass blocker who was ineffective running out of the shotgun with limited receiving skills. How can that be a benefit to the pass game or QB? Did he miss blocks sure but.... how many? Give me the numbers of blocks he missed a game then..... Theories sound good until the facts show up so you want to keep bringing this up show me the numbers of blocks he missed or it means nothing. |
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VikingBob
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Post by VikingBob on Mar 23, 2017 9:20:36 GMT -6
Teddy's numbers and results arent much different than of Ponders both put up craptastic numbers as game managers in which the team won and made the playoffs only to fail in the first game. Teddy supporters will always blame Walsh for missing the FG, but the scored ZERO TDs with Teddy leading them in that playoff game.
Ponder was injured and didnt play...
give Bradford a good OL and a RB and lets see what a real QB looks like
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Post by njvikesfan on Mar 23, 2017 10:14:59 GMT -6
I think it is pretty obvious they just want TB to focus on rehab and not football.
The major difference is arm talent. The playbook is 5 times bigger with Bradford's arm and experience than with TB. Bradford has better poise and can read defenses and get the ball out to avoid the sack. TB looks paralyzed in the pocket and took 44 sacks with a significantly better Oline and the NFL rushing leader taking the pressure off.
Honestly you seem to be a TB fan. I'm not a Bradford fan, I'm a Vikings fan and Bradford is the better QB, and it isn't even close IMO.
Lots of big statements that don't jive with reality. I can understand how some feel Sam is a better QB but I don't think it is nearly as clear as you do. AP has been a hindrance to his QB's since he got here other than Favre. It's entirely possible, if not likely, that AP's negative runs on first and second down would have negatively affected Sam, and his pass pro likely would have shortened Sam's season.
Sam played an offense that was much different in the 2nd half of the season than what they ran with AP and Norv. The OL was bad but let's not forget Kalil was one of the worst LT in the league and Clemmings wasn't much better at RT, in fact I'd say Sirles is a better RT than Clemmings was his first year.
www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb
www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/qb2015
ftw.usatoday.com/2016/08/nfl-quarterback-rankings-2016
not to prove Teddy is better but to bring the debate back to reality-it is close, and worthy of debate and competition if both are healthy.
Your statement doesn't jive with reality. "AP has been a hindrance to his QB's since he got here other than Favre"?
Please tell me what former Viking QB succeeded elsewhere once no longer "hindered" by AP? TJ? Ponder? Cassel? Freeman? Frerotte? Sage? ......... Rhetorical question as these QBs failed to start elsewhere once no longer "hindered" by AP. Of course the only QB who has succeeded elsewhere is Favre, who obviously succeeded with AP also. The fact that you blame AP for the failure of our QBs since he has been here is detached from reality.
The reality is these QBs were so bad that they couldn't even throw successfully against single man high coverage. A HS defense. Favre credited AP's presence for providing him with defenses he hasn't seen since he was in HS to throw against, and Favre had the best year of his career WITH AP.
Now lets look at the facts of what TB did with AP in the backfield (AP who LEAD THE NFL in rushing in 15') providing him HS defenses to throw against for 16 games. 14 TDs, 9 Ints, sacked 44 times, 31st ranked passing offense. Bradford did better with no AP (or semblance of a running game at all) and no pass protection.
Some TB fans need a healthy dose of reality. No need to rush TB back, Bradford is clearly the superior QB. Its baffling to hear people say otherwise.
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Post by nodakviking on Mar 23, 2017 15:01:53 GMT -6
2016 offense scored 29 offensive TD's 5041 yards, the 2015 offense scored 32 TD's and 5139 yards. I would say it's logical to say that the lack of run game in 2016 elevated the passing stats while the presence of AP (righty or wrongly)suppressed the passing stats in a run first offense.
It took a hall of fame QB to exploit the offense(often with his own audibles/ad libs). I don't blame AP s much as the offensive philosophy, the team often shunned extra receiving targets for extra blockers in most years other than the Favre years.
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Post by nodakviking on Mar 23, 2017 15:09:49 GMT -6
Teddy's numbers and results arent much different than of Ponders both put up craptastic numbers as game managers in which the team won and made the playoffs only to fail in the first game. Teddy supporters will always blame Walsh for missing the FG, but the scored ZERO TDs with Teddy leading them in that playoff game. Ponder was injured and didnt play... give Bradford a good OL and a RB and lets see what a real QB looks like And they are both about equal to Sam, career numbers wise Teddy is better in QB rating, QBR, compl %, and W/L.
Not sure why so many are so anxious to move on from a 24 yo QB to a 30 yo QB that has accomplished nothing.
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Post by njvikesfan on Mar 23, 2017 15:44:28 GMT -6
2016 offense scored 29 offensive TD's 5041 yards, the 2015 offense scored 32 TD's and 5139 yards. I would say it's logical to say that the lack of run game in 2016 elevated the passing stats while the presence of AP (righty or wrongly)suppressed the passing stats in a run first offense. It took a hall of fame QB to exploit the offense(often with his own audibles/ad libs). I don't blame AP s much as the offensive philosophy, the team often shunned extra receiving targets for extra blockers in most years other than the Favre years. Well I guess you can try to make stats say what ever you want. The problem with 2015 is that TB didn't contribute much to get those yards, it was all AP.
Not sure how you are even comparing the two season when we were literally missing half our offense in 2016 from week 2 on and in 2015 we were only missing 2 starting Olineman.
TBs passing stats don't lie. 14 TDs, 9 Ints, sacked 44 times, 31st ranked passing offense. If TB was so good wouldn't those numbers be drastically better? I cheer for everyone who wears the Vikings jersey but nothing about TB really excites me. Maybe he could have been good with time but he certainly hasn't shown much in the NFL.
TB had a weak arm and held the ball too long. Bradford has a great arm and can read defenses and get the ball out quickly and with accuracy to any part of the field. Bradford is simply better IMO. He can and does make all the throws and TB is limited. That isn't something that can be learned with time, you either have it or you don't.
A useless debate as TB isn't playing this year and may not ever even be able to return to the field. What are we debating anyway? The legend of what TB is going to be after his knee injury vs Bradford's 1 season QBing an offense deeply flawed due to injury?
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Post by nodakviking on Mar 24, 2017 7:43:17 GMT -6
The Crux of the debate is this.
If both are healthy does Sam break from 7 years of mediocre QB play to suddenly become the franchise QB that 2 other teams decided he wasn't or does Teddy take another step forward in his development to become that guy? Keep in mind Sam will turn 30 this season, Teddy just turned 24.
I don't know which will happen or if neither will happen but the hasty willingness to cast aside the QB who just 7 months ago was the projected long term QB for a Super Bowl favorite astounds me.
Nearly ever career statistic favors Teddy and Hal of his were gained as a rookie with a new coach, Sam hasn't had good teams either but he started out with Steven Jackson and Orlando Pace and his team's did just as well without him.
I have a problem assuming Sam will suddenly be something more than he has been so far. I'm willing to let it play out and hope they are both healthy and may the best man win. I don't see why that is such bone of contention for some of you guys.
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VikingBob
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Post by VikingBob on Mar 24, 2017 9:02:28 GMT -6
If Bridgewater wasnt a Viking, everyone would say he sucks, but the Purple Beer Goggles are worn way too much. His numbers arent any better than what Ponder put up and we all said he sucked, so now all of a sudden those same numbers are Franchise numbers? WOW how we Viking fans strive for mediocrity.
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