Mike Zimmer should be extended

[Viking Horn]

[Viking Horn]

[Viking Horn]

[Viking Horn]

[toledoviking]

Jul 9, 2020 7:15:27 GMT -6 Viking Horn said:

I agree

[Movikx]

“Mike Zimmer let out a sigh as the latest question was asked about his job status in January, this time only moments removed from the Vikings’ playoff win in New Orleans.

It was clear that the stress of the previous week had weighed on him, not just the preparation required to face a future Hall of Fame quarterback on the road but also the persistent chatter that this might’ve been his final game as the head coach of the Minnesota Vikings. It didn’t help that it was known that Zimmer had only one year remaining on his contract.

Less than 48 hours before the game, Vikings ownership, led by Mark and Zygi Wilf, put out a 32-word statement declaring that they “have every intent” to ensure Zimmer and general manager Rick Spielman remain in their positions “next year and beyond.” The statement was crafted by an outside firm, not the Vikings’ public relations department.

Now, though, as Zimmer stood behind a podium fresh off an impressive wild-card round victory over the Saints, the head coach could make his feelings known because, well, he was the victor and surely the Vikings were going to bring him back — probably, it seemed, on a new contract with plenty of job security. “Quite honestly, I think it is silly people are talking about (that) on a 10-win team with 60 percent (career) wins,” Zimmer said on that January day.

That day, it seemed destined the two sides would remain together for years to come.

But now, as training camp looms just weeks away, Zimmer remains without a contract extension and there’s growing tension between the two sides. As with all negotiations, things can change quickly. But Zimmer has been irked by the fact that it’s now July and he remains without a new contract, according to multiple sources who requested anonymity to speak freely about a sensitive topic. He’s begun preparing for what seems like a growing possibility that he may coach this season in the final year of his contract.

What remains unclear is Spielman’s status in all of this. In a 2019 interview in Arizona with The Athletic and ESPN, Mark Wilf said that Zimmer and Spielman had their contracts “synced up” to both end after the 2020 season. Sources The Athletic spoke with this week did not know whether Spielman has agreed to a new contract yet or whether he may also prepare to enter the final year of his contract. The Vikings declined comment on the situation, noting they don’t typically discuss ongoing negotiations.

If both enter the final year of their contracts, it would be a strong message from ownership to the two leaders of their team that the recent success is not enough. And it could potentially have ramifications that lead to either or both not returning in 2021.”

theathletic.com/1915245/2020/07/08/mike-zimmer-vikings-future-contract-negotiations/

[WisconsinVike]

But Zimmer has been irked by the fact that it’s now July and he remains without a new contract,

He’s begun preparing for what seems like a growing possibility that he may coach this season in the final year of his contract.

There are a hell of a lot of regular people out there that would be tickled pink to know they had a guaranteed paycheck for a year coming in.

Welcome to the real world Zimmer

[Uncle]

Sounds like he will be...

[Uncle]

I was actually looking forward to seeing what Zimmer could do coaching on the last year of his contract - would he change philosophies and quit being so conservative and coach like his hair was on fire, or would we still see the Vikings primarily play poorly when it counts (minus playoff game in New Orleans)?

Here are the last 10 Super Bowl winning teams (counting Pats just once) and how long it took that coach to get them that Lombardi:

- Chiefs: Reid's 7th season as Chiefs HC
- Pats: Belichick won 1st SB in his 2nd season as HC
- Eagles: Pederson won SB in 2nd season as HC
- Broncos: Kubiak won SB in 1st season as Broncos HC
- Seahawks: Carroll won SB in his 4th season as Seahawks HC
- Ravens: Harbaugh won SB in his 5th season as Ravens HC
- Giants: Coughlin won 1st SB in his 4th season as Giants HC
- Packers: McCarthy won SB in his 5th season as HC
- Saints: Payton won SB in his 4th season as HC
- Steelers: Tomlin was SB in his 2nd season as HC

Generally speaking in his history, Head Coaches typically take their team "over the hump" within their first 6 seasons, with Andy Reid getting the job done in his 7th season in KC being the lone exception.

Anything can happen in 2020 because of the pandemic - players could test positive and be left off gameday rosters at the blink of an eye so who knows - and although Zimmer is definitely a solid NFL coach, I still have serious doubts that he can get the team to that promised land.

I still continue to believe we've seen the "peak" of the hill of the Zimmer era of the Vikings, so I'm not that excited about extending him beyond 2020....

Just my opinion...

[Purp1eOne]

Uncle,

Andy doesn't win a SB without Mahomes, Kubial without Manning, Tomlin without Ben, Peyton without Brees, Bill without Tom, McCarthy without ARod, Tom without a playing it of his ass little Manning, eagles and Seahawks had killer D's and very good QBs and the Ravens had a killer D.

Most of the coaches don't win without having the QBs they had.

If Zimmer had one of those QBs and not Case a few years back he would have won one already.

[Uncle]

Jul 22, 2020 16:50:07 GMT -6 Purp1eOne said:

Uncle ,

Andy doesn't win a SB without Mahomes, Kubial without Manning, Tomlin without Ben, Peyton without Brees, Bill without Tom, McCarthy without ARod, Tom without a playing it of his ass little Manning, eagles and Seahawks had killer D's and very good QBs and the Ravens had a killer D.

Most of the coaches don't win without having the QBs they had.

If Zimmer had one of those QBs and not Case a few years back he would have won one already.

It's a fair point, regarding "winning" a Super Bowl and needing that high-level franchise QB....

But it bring up a couple questions for me: 

1) Is Cousins in that group - a high-level "franchise" QB? Someone at the same level as Mahomes, Brees, Rodgers, R Wilson, etc? I don't personally think so at this point and even if the Vikes in 2017 had Cousins vs Case, I'm not certain they would have made it out of the NFC Championship in Philly, although I think we would have scored more than just 7 pts. It remains to be seen if Cousins can get to that level the others are at and it's possible he might get there in 2020 and beyond, but at this point, I don't think he would have made a difference in winning that game. 

2) What about not "winning" a Super Bowl, but just getting there? I mentioned the Head Coaches from the last 10 SB winning teams and how, outside of Reid getting the Chiefs a Lombardi in his 7th season in KC, all of them won the Super Won inside of their first 6 seasons. So what about the teams that got there and didn't win and I haven't previously mentioned (ie, I've already mentioned Belichick who lost vs. the Eagles so I won't count him)? 

Here are the last 10 Super Bowl "losing" teams and how long it took their head coaches to get to the Super Bowl (again, not including HC's previously mentioned like Belichick):

- 49ers; Shanahan got the 49ers to the SB in his 3rd season w/ Jimmy G as QB
- Rams; McVay got the Rams to the SB in his 2nd season w/ J Goff as QB
- Falcons; Quinn got the Falcons to the SB in his 2nd season w/ M Ryan as QB
- Panthers; Rivera got Carolina to the SB in his 5th season w/ C Newton as QB
- Broncos; J Fox got Denver to the SB in his 3rd season w/ P Manning as QB
- 49ers; Harbaugh got SF to the SB in his 2nd season w/ Kaepernick as QB
- Colts; Caldwell got the Colts back to the SB in his 1st season w/ P Manning as QB
- Cardinals; Whisenhunt got the Cardinals to their 1st SB in his 2nd season w/ K Warner as QB
- Bears; L Smith got the Bears to the SB in his 3rd season w/ R Grossman as QB
- Seahawks; Holmgren got Seattle to the SB in his 7th season as M Hasselbeck as QB

So again, you have 1 out of the previous 10 HC's in Super Bowl "losing" teams that took their team to the Super outside of their first 6 seasons - the rest got there within their first 6 seasons. In terms of the QB that got there, 2 out of the 9 QB's (as Manning is listed twice) you could argue are "elite" QB's (Manning and Warner as they are both HOF's or soon-to-be HOF in Manning's case) - everyone else from Jimmy G to M Hasselbeck you could argue is at Cousin's level. 

Throw out "winning" the Super Bowl w/ a high-level QB, you could argue that Zimmer should have at least gotten the Vikes to the Super Bowl w/ "lesser" QB's. 

I'm still under the belief we've seen the peak of the Zimmer era w/ the Vikings....unless we go the Bill Cowher route, who took the Steelers to the SB in his 4th season under N O'Donnell, and then won it all in his next trip there in his 14th season with Ben Roethlisberger...but coaches getting 14 seasons like Cowher got w/ Pittsburgh is an exception you don't see in the NFL in the 21st Century very much; Belichick (2000), S Payton (2006), Tomlin (2007) and John Harbaugh (2008) are the only current coaches who are the exceptions who come close to Cowher-level patience and they all share one thing in common: they've not only been to the Super Bowl, but won it at least once. Of the 10 most tenured current Head Coaches in the NFL, only Zimmer and Bill O'Brien haven't been to the Super Bowl, and if you throw in Dan Quinn, 7 out of the 10 most tenured current HC's have won the Super Bowl w/ Zimmer, O'Brien and Quinn being the 3 who haven't. 

[IceRatz16]

Jul 23, 2020 6:23:27 GMT -6 Uncle said:

Jul 22, 2020 16:50:07 GMT -6 Purp1eOne said:

Uncle ,

Andy doesn't win a SB without Mahomes, Kubial without Manning, Tomlin without Ben, Peyton without Brees, Bill without Tom, McCarthy without ARod, Tom without a playing it of his ass little Manning, eagles and Seahawks had killer D's and very good QBs and the Ravens had a killer D.

Most of the coaches don't win without having the QBs they had.

If Zimmer had one of those QBs and not Case a few years back he would have won one already.

It's a fair point, regarding "winning" a Super Bowl and needing that high-level franchise QB....

But it bring up a couple questions for me: 

1) Is Cousins in that group - a high-level "franchise" QB? Someone at the same level as Mahomes, Brees, Rodgers, R Wilson, etc? I don't personally think so at this point and even if the Vikes in 2017 had Cousins vs Case, I'm not certain they would have made it out of the NFC Championship in Philly, although I think we would have scored more than just 7 pts. It remains to be seen if Cousins can get to that level the others are at and it's possible he might get there in 2020 and beyond, but at this point, I don't think he would have made a difference in winning that game. 

2) What about not "winning" a Super Bowl, but just getting there? I mentioned the Head Coaches from the last 10 SB winning teams and how, outside of Reid getting the Chiefs a Lombardi in his 7th season in KC, all of them won the Super Won inside of their first 6 seasons. So what about the teams that got there and didn't win and I haven't previously mentioned (ie, I've already mentioned Belichick who lost vs. the Eagles so I won't count him)? 

Here are the last 10 Super Bowl "losing" teams and how long it took their head coaches to get to the Super Bowl (again, not including HC's previously mentioned like Belichick):

- 49ers; Shanahan got the 49ers to the SB in his 3rd season w/ Jimmy G as QB
- Rams; McVay got the Rams to the SB in his 2nd season w/ J Goff as QB
- Falcons; Quinn got the Falcons to the SB in his 2nd season w/ M Ryan as QB
- Panthers; Rivera got Carolina to the SB in his 5th season w/ C Newton as QB
- Broncos; J Fox got Denver to the SB in his 3rd season w/ P Manning as QB
- 49ers; Harbaugh got SF to the SB in his 2nd season w/ Kaepernick as QB
- Colts; Caldwell got the Colts back to the SB in his 1st season w/ P Manning as QB
- Cardinals; Whisenhunt got the Cardinals to their 1st SB in his 2nd season w/ K Warner as QB
- Bears; L Smith got the Bears to the SB in his 3rd season w/ R Grossman as QB
- Seahawks; Holmgren got Seattle to the SB in his 7th season as M Hasselbeck as QB

So again, you have 1 out of the previous 10 HC's in Super Bowl "losing" teams that took their team to the Super outside of their first 6 seasons - the rest got there within their first 6 seasons. In terms of the QB that got there, 2 out of the 9 QB's (as Manning is listed twice) you could argue are "elite" QB's (Manning and Warner as they are both HOF's or soon-to-be HOF in Manning's case) - everyone else from Jimmy G to M Hasselbeck you could argue is at Cousin's level. 

Throw out "winning" the Super Bowl w/ a high-level QB, you could argue that Zimmer should have at least gotten the Vikes to the Super Bowl w/ "lesser" QB's. 

I'm still under the belief we've seen the peak of the Zimmer era w/ the Vikings....unless we go the Bill Cowher route, who took the Steelers to the SB in his 4th season under N O'Donnell, and then won it all in his next trip there in his 14th season with Ben Roethlisberger...but coaches getting 14 seasons like Cowher got w/ Pittsburgh is an exception you don't see in the NFL in the 21st Century very much; Belichick (2000), S Payton (2006), Tomlin (2007) and John Harbaugh (2008) are the only current coaches who are the exceptions who come close to Cowher-level patience and they all share one thing in common: they've not only been to the Super Bowl, but won it at least once. Of the 10 most tenured current Head Coaches in the NFL, only Zimmer and Bill O'Brien haven't been to the Super Bowl, and if you throw in Dan Quinn, 7 out of the 10 most tenured current HC's have won the Super Bowl w/ Zimmer, O'Brien and Quinn being the 3 who haven't. 

I'm not going to go into the Case vs Cousins bit, as I am often in the minority in those discussions, but the one thing I would say is that Case's strength was moving outside of the pocket and alluding pressure.  The Phily front 7 were tough and provided a lot of pressure.  I highly doubt Mr. Statute would have fared much better than Case.


Now, with respect to these details in the posts you have provided Uncle, I would just mention that while I support the information, what is the length of tenure  on one team for coaches over the last 10 Superbowls?  I would venture to guess it's around 3-4 years.  As we know, GM's these days do not have patience and want to win now.  Rightfully so, as the window of opportunity is usually slim, which is why most organizations will move on from a coach if he isn't providing results.


Problem I have is defining results.  To me, the only results that matter is playoff wins and Superbowl appearances.  If those two things happen and continue to happen, then you keep your coach.  If they don't after X amount of years (that's the magic question), then you should move on.


The other issue I have with Zim is that he has had turnover every year in critical coaching positions.  The OC position alone has seen turnover almost every year, if not mid-season.  The underlying concern for me for that position specifically is that Zim is a Defensive guy first.  If he cannot have stability at the OC position, then there's something wrong.


One of the reasons the Patriots had been so successful over the year, IMO, is due to the stability of the key areas in coaching.  Bill was a defensive coach first and while he had some consistency at the OC position, the OL coach had been with him from the beginning.  That never changed.  Obviously, he had one of the best QBs to play the game for those years as well, but that can attribute to being a major factor in success by having strong assets in key positions and consistency.


I have mentioned many times that I admire Zim for bringing in Kubiak last season, knowing full well that he struggles with the offense and game planning accordingly.  This year he brought in Capers.  There is consistency with those two individuals and now pared back together, this could be a making for some strong improvement and stability.


Zim is a good dude, but he needs to begin to outsmart other coaches and win the big games, primetime games, playoff games, and get his team to the Superbowl and win one...

[Uncle]

Jul 23, 2020 7:11:11 GMT -6 IceRatz16 said:

Jul 23, 2020 6:23:27 GMT -6 Uncle said:

It's a fair point, regarding "winning" a Super Bowl and needing that high-level franchise QB....

But it bring up a couple questions for me: 

1) Is Cousins in that group - a high-level "franchise" QB? Someone at the same level as Mahomes, Brees, Rodgers, R Wilson, etc? I don't personally think so at this point and even if the Vikes in 2017 had Cousins vs Case, I'm not certain they would have made it out of the NFC Championship in Philly, although I think we would have scored more than just 7 pts. It remains to be seen if Cousins can get to that level the others are at and it's possible he might get there in 2020 and beyond, but at this point, I don't think he would have made a difference in winning that game. 

2) What about not "winning" a Super Bowl, but just getting there? I mentioned the Head Coaches from the last 10 SB winning teams and how, outside of Reid getting the Chiefs a Lombardi in his 7th season in KC, all of them won the Super Won inside of their first 6 seasons. So what about the teams that got there and didn't win and I haven't previously mentioned (ie, I've already mentioned Belichick who lost vs. the Eagles so I won't count him)? 

Here are the last 10 Super Bowl "losing" teams and how long it took their head coaches to get to the Super Bowl (again, not including HC's previously mentioned like Belichick):

- 49ers; Shanahan got the 49ers to the SB in his 3rd season w/ Jimmy G as QB
- Rams; McVay got the Rams to the SB in his 2nd season w/ J Goff as QB
- Falcons; Quinn got the Falcons to the SB in his 2nd season w/ M Ryan as QB
- Panthers; Rivera got Carolina to the SB in his 5th season w/ C Newton as QB
- Broncos; J Fox got Denver to the SB in his 3rd season w/ P Manning as QB
- 49ers; Harbaugh got SF to the SB in his 2nd season w/ Kaepernick as QB
- Colts; Caldwell got the Colts back to the SB in his 1st season w/ P Manning as QB
- Cardinals; Whisenhunt got the Cardinals to their 1st SB in his 2nd season w/ K Warner as QB
- Bears; L Smith got the Bears to the SB in his 3rd season w/ R Grossman as QB
- Seahawks; Holmgren got Seattle to the SB in his 7th season as M Hasselbeck as QB

So again, you have 1 out of the previous 10 HC's in Super Bowl "losing" teams that took their team to the Super outside of their first 6 seasons - the rest got there within their first 6 seasons. In terms of the QB that got there, 2 out of the 9 QB's (as Manning is listed twice) you could argue are "elite" QB's (Manning and Warner as they are both HOF's or soon-to-be HOF in Manning's case) - everyone else from Jimmy G to M Hasselbeck you could argue is at Cousin's level. 

Throw out "winning" the Super Bowl w/ a high-level QB, you could argue that Zimmer should have at least gotten the Vikes to the Super Bowl w/ "lesser" QB's. 

I'm still under the belief we've seen the peak of the Zimmer era w/ the Vikings....unless we go the Bill Cowher route, who took the Steelers to the SB in his 4th season under N O'Donnell, and then won it all in his next trip there in his 14th season with Ben Roethlisberger...but coaches getting 14 seasons like Cowher got w/ Pittsburgh is an exception you don't see in the NFL in the 21st Century very much; Belichick (2000), S Payton (2006), Tomlin (2007) and John Harbaugh (2008) are the only current coaches who are the exceptions who come close to Cowher-level patience and they all share one thing in common: they've not only been to the Super Bowl, but won it at least once. Of the 10 most tenured current Head Coaches in the NFL, only Zimmer and Bill O'Brien haven't been to the Super Bowl, and if you throw in Dan Quinn, 7 out of the 10 most tenured current HC's have won the Super Bowl w/ Zimmer, O'Brien and Quinn being the 3 who haven't. 

Zim is a good dude, but he needs to begin to outsmart other coaches and win the big games, primetime games, playoff games, and get his team to the Superbowl and win one...

That's the key sentence to me...Zimmer is a solid NFL HC, I think most Viking fans and NFL fans would agree with that, but some Viking fans would have liked to see a bit more prior to the extension because we're not at the "consistent contender" level yet.

And some fans hark back to the Tice/Childress/Frazier era before Zimmer and counter with, "do you want to go back to that era? I'll take Zimmer over that any day of the week...", and while most fans would agree that they would take Zimmer over Tice/Childress/Frazier (ie, take competence over incompetence), that is based on the presumption that a Head Coach after Zimmer will be incompetent like Tice/Childress/Frazier....

...but what if the next coach after Zimmer is more Kyle Shanahan (ie, building a contending team and taking team to SB in 3 seasons) than Leslie Frazier? You never would find out if you're Ok w/ getting to the playoffs every other year w/ Zimmer and winning an occasional playoff game here and there...

As of right now, I compare Zimmer more to the Jerry Burns era: getting to the playoffs 50% of the time and generally being considered a contender to make the playoffs and occasionally having a playoff run (ie, 1987 in the Burns era and 2017 in the Zimmer era), but never being a consistent Conference/Super Bowl contender....and being in a Jerry Burns/Mike Zimmer era is an improvement for franchises like Jacksonville/Cleveland who are consistently bottom-feeders, but Minnesota is way overdue for finally getting over that proverbial "hump" to consistent Conference/Super Bowl contender, and I'm just not sold that Mike Zimmer is the Head Coach to get us over it....

Zimmer once said, "Don't tell me about the labor - show me the baby!".....well, I started being a Vikings fan in the late 80's under Jerry Burns, and I've seen a bunch of labor from then until now...I'm ready to have the baby shown to me, and I'm not certain Mike is the one to deliver that baby to the Viking fans...Show me the baby Mike....

[Viking Horn]

[OkieDokie]

I think 2 years max both GM and coach.