OkieDokie
Surviving
Jarl (22,857)
Feb 5, 2017
Valhalla
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Post by OkieDokie on Apr 21, 2020 18:58:51 GMT -6
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skrill
Fri-hals (146)
Feb 22, 2020
Valhalla
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Post by skrill on Apr 21, 2020 19:34:49 GMT -6
Uncle I'm all for trading down too, but I think you have to identify the tiers for different positions in this draft and where that fits into the Vikings draft strategy. If they plan to draft a starting tackle, realistically that has to be done in the first round. I've talked before about how I like that second tier of defensive tackles, and not just Madubuike. I think after Madubuike, Gallimore, Elliott and Blacklock, there's a clear drop-off. Spielman kept saying in his press conference today, they need to draft starters early. The latest I could see us coming away with one of those defensive tackles is the bottom of the second, and that's at a stretch. Let's say you've taken a tackle at #22, and traded back to the early 2nd round from #25. Corner is likely the biggest need here if it hasn't already been addressed at #22. I do think after #25 there's a chance no corners come off the board until we pick again in the early 2nd. Just looking at the needs of teams late in the 1st/early 2nd, Carolina at #38 is probably the earliest and that's assuming they don't go CB at #7. So chances are the CB's at #25 are the same or very similar. My only concern is how many corners come off the board before #25, particularly in that 15-20 range. I do think given how weak an interior OL class this is, they could definitely be looking at kicking Reiff into guard. I'm not against it, as I don't see the value of going guard in this class. The few decent ones will come off the board early out of necessity rather than BPA. So that leaves WR, and like I mentioned, I'm starting to think they'll address that after OT/CB and possibly even DT. #22 - OT Josh Jones #37 - CB Jaylon Johnson (Trade #25 for #37 & #71) #41 - DT Justin Madubuike (Trade #58 & #89 for #41) #71 - WR Van Jefferson #105 - DE Alex Highsmith #132 - DB Kenny Robinson Jr. #155 - WR Isaiah Hodgins That would be a fun draft.
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Uncle
Berserker (7,565)
Feb 8, 2017
Valhalla
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Post by Uncle on Apr 21, 2020 20:02:41 GMT -6
Uncle I'm all for trading down too, but I think you have to identify the tiers for different positions in this draft and where that fits into the Vikings draft strategy. If they plan to draft a starting tackle, realistically that has to be done in the first round. I've talked before about how I like that second tier of defensive tackles, and not just Madubuike. I think after Madubuike, Gallimore, Elliott and Blacklock, there's a clear drop-off. Spielman kept saying in his press conference today, they need to draft starters early. The latest I could see us coming away with one of those defensive tackles is the bottom of the second, and that's at a stretch. Let's say you've taken a tackle at #22, and traded back to the early 2nd round from #25. Corner is likely the biggest need here if it hasn't already been addressed at #22. I do think after #25 there's a chance no corners come off the board until we pick again in the early 2nd. Just looking at the needs of teams late in the 1st/early 2nd, Carolina at #38 is probably the earliest and that's assuming they don't go CB at #7. So chances are the CB's at #25 are the same or very similar. My only concern is how many corners come off the board before #25, particularly in that 15-20 range. I do think given how weak an interior OL class this is, they could definitely be looking at kicking Reiff into guard. I'm not against it, as I don't see the value of going guard in this class. The few decent ones will come off the board early out of necessity rather than BPA. So that leaves WR, and like I mentioned, I'm starting to think they'll address that after OT/CB and possibly even DT. #22 - OT Josh Jones #37 - CB Jaylon Johnson (Trade #25 for #37 & #71) #41 - DT Justin Madubuike (Trade #58 & #89 for #41) #71 - WR Van Jefferson #105 - DE Alex Highsmith #132 - DB Kenny Robinson Jr. #155 - WR Isaiah Hodgins That would be a fun draft. I know you like Jones, but if the Vikes want a LT "starter" in Rd 1, they'd have to overpay and trade up....Jones has athletic talent, but I'm just not seeing immediate LT starting Wk 1 there with Jones...that's why I think the Vikes resigned Rashod Hill - to be the "bridge" LT for a year - and if we're gonna sit Jones for the year, that's not getting the Wk 1 "starter" Rick talked about it. I'll just agree to disagree there. I think we're better served getting a developmental LT later on to sit behind Hill in Year 1 while kicking Reiff inside for a year. I'm starting to wonder if Zimmer is thinking about AJ Epenensa at #22 if he's there. I'm wondering if Zimmer wants to duplicate the success he had with moving Griffin inside to 3T on passing downs and Epenensa - although not an elite pass-rusher off the EDGE by any means - is a very good run defender that would set the edge on early downs and then kick inside on those passing downs. That would still allow Odenigbo to be a rotational EDGE player while Epenensa kicks inside. Then with #25 is where the trade down occurs as the next best position group where you get Day 1 starters at this point is probably CB and there's a cluster you could choose from - this is where the trade down occurs to the top of the 2nd to grab a Day 1 CB like you mentioned - either Terrell, Fulton or Johnson. And since they went DL in Rd 1, I don't think they go interior DT here at #58 and they only trade up for someone if they fall - say Winfield, Jr (if Harris isn't in the plans), maybe Aiyuk - but I could actually see a trade-back again at #58 to collect another 3rd Rd/4th Rd pick and draft either developmental LT or WR - probably WR (Van Jefferson or Pittman). That leaves the entire 3rd Rd wide open to plug all the depth gaps. What that also does is open up all of those 3rd rounders acquired to go get guys via trade to fill gaps - aka Trent Williams.
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skrill
Fri-hals (146)
Feb 22, 2020
Valhalla
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Post by skrill on Apr 21, 2020 20:27:29 GMT -6
You know I'm high on Josh Jones, I think he's the second best pass protector in this class behind Andrew Thomas, and that's in spite of him being one of the rawest prospects in this class so there's much room to grow and develop. It's the same reason I'm high on Mims, his route running may be raw but it's fixable and his ceiling is immense.
I'm not high on Epenesa. I don't see him as a 4-3 DE at all at the next level. He's not going to beat NFL tackles off the edge. I see what you mean about kicking him inside on passing downs, but if your going in that direction for me you'd draft Gross-Matos, who I think is in a similar mould to Hunter. I think in a 3-4 front Epenesa could and most probably will be more effective, but unless the Vikings are planning to go in that direction I think it's unlikely they draft him.
Thursday is going to be exciting, seriously cannot wait!
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Post by snotbubbles on Apr 22, 2020 10:28:55 GMT -6
Uncle, My concern in moving Reiff to G is that even though he played that position before, he has earned his living as a tackle. This is why I have doubts as to carry over effect; guy spent a lot of time and effort to get better as a tackle. This matters, but how much? As an example, if I intend to be a Greco-Roman wrestler, I will not worry much about my single and double leg take downs. So to some degree my leg attacks will degrade. How much of that will happen to Reiff? Speaking of guard, on right side if Samia is lead dog, who is behind HIM at that point? Seems to me anyway that Kline could come back at some point. Both guard spots under manned has to make KC jit, it does me. Have seen nothing recent as to Vikes and Trent Williams except that the Browns may be interested as well. I am hoping for a starting guard for '20 and a starter at LT in '21 in this draft at a minimum. Believe we have enough in the coffers to potentially get both if one of the blue chip tackles should fall in the first. Amazing how much capital it takes to get a oline from piss poor to productive, but its been long overdue. Hell last decent LT we had was Steussie that I can recall, and a tandem of animals at guard is even longer than that.
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Uncle
Berserker (7,565)
Feb 8, 2017
Valhalla
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Post by Uncle on Apr 22, 2020 10:37:54 GMT -6
Uncle , My concern in moving Reiff to G is that even though he played that position before, he has earned his living as a tackle. This is why I have doubts as to carry over effect; guy spent a lot of time and effort to get better as a tackle. This matters, but how much? As an example, if I intend to be a Greco-Roman wrestler, I will not worry much about my single and double leg take downs. So to some degree my leg attacks will degrade. How much of that will happen to Reiff? Speaking of guard, on right side if Samia is lead dog, who is behind HIM at that point? Seems to me anyway that Kline could come back at some point. Both guard spots under manned has to make KC jit, it does me. Have seen nothing recent as to Vikes and Trent Williams except that the Browns may be interested as well. I am hoping for a starting guard for '20 and a starter at LT in '21 in this draft at a minimum. Believe we have enough in the coffers to potentially get both if one of the blue chip tackles should fall in the first. Amazing how much capital it takes to get a oline from piss poor to productive, but its been long overdue. Hell last decent LT we had was Steussie that I can recall, and a tandem of animals at guard is even longer than that. I hear ya snot, and when I hear talk of moving Reiff to OG I have visions of the disaster that Mike Remmers was at OG when we pushed him inside. I do think we'll know what the plan is at LT after Friday night...either they move on Trent Williams or they draft a developmental LT to sit behind either Reiff or Rashod Hill in 2020...and I do think if they miss on Williams they take a developmental LT on Thursday (Round 1) or Friday (Rounds 2 & 3). The move to resign Rashod Hill for 2020 was pretty key for this, IMO, because even if he's not that great, he's at least serviceable enough to start Wk 1 and get us through until the 2020 LT rookie is ready, similar to how Brian O'Neill wasn't ready Wk 1 but then came in later in the 2018 season and started and was able to hold up....
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Post by snotbubbles on Apr 22, 2020 16:59:36 GMT -6
Uncle , My concern in moving Reiff to G is that even though he played that position before, he has earned his living as a tackle. This is why I have doubts as to carry over effect; guy spent a lot of time and effort to get better as a tackle. This matters, but how much? As an example, if I intend to be a Greco-Roman wrestler, I will not worry much about my single and double leg take downs. So to some degree my leg attacks will degrade. How much of that will happen to Reiff? Speaking of guard, on right side if Samia is lead dog, who is behind HIM at that point? Seems to me anyway that Kline could come back at some point. Both guard spots under manned has to make KC jit, it does me. Have seen nothing recent as to Vikes and Trent Williams except that the Browns may be interested as well. I am hoping for a starting guard for '20 and a starter at LT in '21 in this draft at a minimum. Believe we have enough in the coffers to potentially get both if one of the blue chip tackles should fall in the first. Amazing how much capital it takes to get a oline from piss poor to productive, but its been long overdue. Hell last decent LT we had was Steussie that I can recall, and a tandem of animals at guard is even longer than that. I hear ya snot, and when I hear talk of moving Reiff to OG I have visions of the disaster that Mike Remmers was at OG when we pushed him inside. I do think we'll know what the plan is at LT after Friday night...either they move on Trent Williams or they draft a developmental LT to sit behind either Reiff or Rashod Hill in 2020...and I do think if they miss on Williams they take a developmental LT on Thursday (Round 1) or Friday (Rounds 2 & 3). The move to resign Rashod Hill for 2020 was pretty key for this, IMO, because even if he's not that great, he's at least serviceable enough to start Wk 1 and get us through until the 2020 LT rookie is ready, similar to how Brian O'Neill wasn't ready Wk 1 but then came in later in the 2018 season and started and was able to hold up.... Wow, I had forgotten about Remmers...anyway I kind of hope they get the vet and draft a developmental player, but the guard position also gives something to think about waiting for the draft. Wouldn't be surprised to see Kline back and think that would eliminate need to slide Reiff over. A pair of maulers at guard would be sweet, Samia could be one hopefully.
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Norseman
Thegn (3,074)
Apr 21, 2018
Valhalla
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Post by Norseman on Apr 22, 2020 17:07:07 GMT -6
I hear ya snot, and when I hear talk of moving Reiff to OG I have visions of the disaster that Mike Remmers was at OG when we pushed him inside. I do think we'll know what the plan is at LT after Friday night...either they move on Trent Williams or they draft a developmental LT to sit behind either Reiff or Rashod Hill in 2020...and I do think if they miss on Williams they take a developmental LT on Thursday (Round 1) or Friday (Rounds 2 & 3). The move to resign Rashod Hill for 2020 was pretty key for this, IMO, because even if he's not that great, he's at least serviceable enough to start Wk 1 and get us through until the 2020 LT rookie is ready, similar to how Brian O'Neill wasn't ready Wk 1 but then came in later in the 2018 season and started and was able to hold up.... Wow, I had forgotten about Remmers...anyway I kind of hope they get the vet and draft a developmental player, but the guard position also gives something to think about waiting for the draft. Wouldn't be surprised to see Kline back and think that would eliminate need to slide Reiff over. A pair of maulers at guard would be sweet, Samia could be one hopefully. In your defense, I will point out that he was VERY forgettable!
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Uncle
Berserker (7,565)
Feb 8, 2017
Valhalla
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Post by Uncle on Apr 23, 2020 9:15:04 GMT -6
Adam Schefter @adamschefter Patriots are signing former Jaguars’ WR Marqise Lee to a one-year contract, per source. Trade a TE, land a WR.
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Uncle
Berserker (7,565)
Feb 8, 2017
Valhalla
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Post by Uncle on Apr 23, 2020 9:23:18 GMT -6
Just curious if anyone in the Twin Cities area listened to PA this morning and what we was saying on Trent Williams. It's all over the Vikings "rumor mill" on the Internet that PA is strongly predicting the Vikings land Williams and it's CB/WR in Rd 1 tonight... There's a thread over at SKOL Reddit on it ( link), among other places....last evening Williams to Browns was pretty much a done deal after Williams starting his Stefon Diggs IG shenanigans, but nothing was finalized (as far as we know) and this morning apparently PA is hot on the Vikes landing him... I find it interesting that it's PA doing the strong predictions and that's probably why it has the Viking's rumor mills really buzzed up....
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greylock
Thegn (1,926)
Apr 30, 2017
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Post by greylock on Apr 23, 2020 9:54:10 GMT -6
I'm not high on Epenesa. I don't see him as a 4-3 DE at all at the next level. He's not going to beat NFL tackles off the edge. He didn't have a problem with Austin Jackson in their bowl game, who will be a left tackle in the NFL. You also have to consider that Epenesa only had 1 year as a full time starter, the previous years he only came in on passing downs. Had nothing to do with his ability to beat tackles or rush the passer but Ferentz has a loyalty to seniors so once regular starter graduated, Eppy earned the starting role. Most fans couldn't understand this but that is just the way it is with Iowa football.
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Uncle
Berserker (7,565)
Feb 8, 2017
Valhalla
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Post by Uncle on Apr 24, 2020 6:41:17 GMT -6
From ESPN's Josina Anderson last night:
ig: josinaanderson @josinaanderson I'm told just now the #Browns are now out of the Trent Williams market after drafting Alabama T Jedrick Wills tonight at the #10 spot, at this time, per source. 10:39 PM · Apr 23, 2020·TweetDeck
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skrill
Fri-hals (146)
Feb 22, 2020
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Post by skrill on Apr 24, 2020 8:24:28 GMT -6
Darren Wolfson believes the Redskins are asking for the 58th pick. Are they high? I know they'd get a 3rd round comp pick next year, but even a 3rd rounder at this point seems like too much to pay. He hasn't played for a year, coming off an injury, asking for a big extension probably in region of $15m a year, and all the other teams that were sniffing around him drafted franchise tackles.
At a stretch I'd give them #105, just because I really don't want the Vikings to be forced to take a developmental tackle when Josh Jones and Ezra Cleveland inevitably come off the board. If we get Trent Williams, and by some miracle one of Blacklock, Madubuike, Elliott, Gallimore falls to #58 then we are in a really strong position to go BPA for the rest of the draft.
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Uncle
Berserker (7,565)
Feb 8, 2017
Valhalla
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Post by Uncle on Apr 24, 2020 8:40:42 GMT -6
Darren Wolfson believes the Redskins are asking for the 58th pick. Are they high? I know they'd get a 3rd round comp pick next year, but even a 3rd rounder at this point seems like too much to pay. He hasn't played for a year, coming off an injury, asking for a big extension probably in region of $15m a year, and all the other teams that were sniffing around him drafted franchise tackles. At a stretch I'd give them #105, just because I really don't want the Vikings to be forced to take a developmental tackle when Josh Jones and Ezra Cleveland inevitably come off the board. If we get Trent Williams, and by some miracle one of Blacklock, Madubuike, Elliott, Gallimore falls to #58 then we are in a really strong position to go BPA for the rest of the draft. 58th pick is way too much compensation and if Washington wants to demand that much, then I don't force things and just resign ourselves to taking a developmental LT like Prince Tego. With us sitting at #58, we'd have to trade Rd 3 pick to move up for Ezra or Josh Jones, and we just have too many roster holes for that...and then you mine as well forget about Madubuike, Elliott, Gallimore and try for Agim at #117. Assuming Harris stays and we don't need a starting FS, I actually try and trade back from #58 to the top of the 3rd (pick up another 4th) and try to fill gaps with Day 3 picks reluctantly.... # (top of 3rd pick): Prince Tego, OT - start Rashod Hill, kick Reiff inside to LG, and Prince is ready in 2021 at LT #89 Reggie Robinson II or Bryce Hall - still need another outside CB #105 Trevis Gipson or Alex Highsmith # (top of 4th from trading back in 2nd) - McTelvin Agim, DT; basically Justin Madubuike "light" and another Armon Watts; maybe he develops into more #117 Jake Fromm; high-floor backup QB capable of managing offense and can help Cousins in QB room #132 Brandon Jones, S; sort of a mult-tool S prospect; can develop into S in Yr 3 probably I feel like the value was in extra Day 2 selections, but instead we took Day 1 and beefed-up for Day 3....not really a fan of that approach but the coaches will have to develop Day 3 into solid starters in 2022+ for that strategy to work out...man, would have loved the LAC offer at #22 and drafted Aiyuk at #25....much better Day 2 position to do what we want vs what we're left with....
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skrill
Fri-hals (146)
Feb 22, 2020
Valhalla
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Post by skrill on Apr 24, 2020 9:51:33 GMT -6
Darren Wolfson believes the Redskins are asking for the 58th pick. Are they high? I know they'd get a 3rd round comp pick next year, but even a 3rd rounder at this point seems like too much to pay. He hasn't played for a year, coming off an injury, asking for a big extension probably in region of $15m a year, and all the other teams that were sniffing around him drafted franchise tackles. At a stretch I'd give them #105, just because I really don't want the Vikings to be forced to take a developmental tackle when Josh Jones and Ezra Cleveland inevitably come off the board. If we get Trent Williams, and by some miracle one of Blacklock, Madubuike, Elliott, Gallimore falls to #58 then we are in a really strong position to go BPA for the rest of the draft. 58th pick is way too much compensation and if Washington wants to demand that much, then I don't force things and just resign ourselves to taking a developmental LT like Prince Tego. With us sitting at #58, we'd have to trade Rd 3 pick to move up for Ezra or Josh Jones, and we just have too many roster holes for that...and then you mine as well forget about Madubuike, Elliott, Gallimore and try for Agim at #117. Assuming Harris stays and we don't need a starting FS, I actually try and trade back from #58 to the top of the 3rd (pick up another 4th) and try to fill gaps with Day 3 picks reluctantly.... # (top of 3rd pick): Prince Tego, OT - start Rashod Hill, kick Reiff inside to LG, and Prince is ready in 2021 at LT #89 Reggie Robinson II or Bryce Hall - still need another outside CB #105 Trevis Gipson or Alex Highsmith # (top of 4th from trading back in 2nd) - McTelvin Agim, DT; basically Justin Madubuike "light" and another Armon Watts; maybe he develops into more #117 Jake Fromm; high-floor backup QB capable of managing offense and can help Cousins in QB room #132 Brandon Jones, S; sort of a mult-tool S prospect; can develop into S in Yr 3 probably I feel like the value was in extra Day 2 selections, but instead we took Day 1 and beefed-up for Day 3....not really a fan of that approach but the coaches will have to develop Day 3 into solid starters in 2022+ for that strategy to work out...man, would have loved the LAC offer at #22 and drafted Aiyuk at #25....much better Day 2 position to do what we want vs what we're left with.... I'm starting to get the sense that they'll wait to see Josh Jones or Ezra Cleveland start to slide into Vikings range at #58. If that doesn't happen, and I'd be very surprised if it does, maybe that forces their hand a little towards giving the Redskins either a 3rd or a 4th round pick. I think ultimately they'd rather have that than wait another year for a 3rd round compensatory pick and have his $14.5m salary on the books, preventing them from making big moves in post-draft free agency.
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